fourth+discussion

Group Discussion 4
This module explored the evolving role of the teacher. In your groups, consider how a teacher in either an online or a distributed learning environment might develop and maintain teaching, cognitive and social presence?

Questions to Guide Your Discussion
> > Submit the key points of your discussion in a format of your group's choice.
 * How might a distributed learning experience be organized to support teaching, cognitive and social presence?
 * Which tools within or without D2L would support this goal?
 * Are there tools within or without D2L any that might hinder this goal?

Just a quick question to end off my Friday afternoon... For those who have taken other courses such as this one- have any of you noticed a difference in the 'online presence' of your instructor? This is my 6th course at U of C and so far I have encountered 4 different profs...each with their own online teaching styles. One prof (who shall remain nameless) was remarkably absent on the discussion board...never posted a thing! Others have participated in the discussion - like in this TALO course. It really makes a difference. There is something about knowing that the prof is checking in and actively participating in the dialogue to help a learner feel supported - both cognitively and socially. Heidi

I agree. Most of the courses I've taken have had large scale authentic tasks supported by week by week discussions. Usually the format would be a read and respond each Monday with an expectation for at least one or two contributions to a conversation during the week. Having the instructor pop in to keep everyone on target is always helpful in these conversations. As for the question above, I find that true cognitive presence is difficult to achieve in any learning space - on or off line. To be truly intellectually engaged the learning experience needs to matter to the student. So often learning is built upon a transmission model. In the face to face classroom this shows up as a lecture - take notes - produce an assimilation of the notes. In the online environment this appears as tasks that involve reading and answering questions. For a task in either of these environments to build cognitive presence, the learning needs to be authentic, collaborative, challenging, and meaningful. The CEA have done some amazing work in this area: Willms, J. D., Friesen, S., & Milton, P. (2009). //What did you do in school today? Transforming classrooms through social, academic, and intellectual engagement. (First National Report)//. Toronto: Canadian Education Association. Retrieved from []  Doug - BTW: Thanks again you two for the heads up! //**This is actually my first online course as a student- though I have developed over 40! I think Doug has been great. I really appreciate the immediate feedback. I think that instructor presence is one of the most important components to bridging that gap between face to face learning and online learning. I also think the discussion boards have been useful at connecting students. We can learn so much from each other. Though I have to say keeping up with the discussion posts has been a bit overwhelming for me. On the other hand, it is great to see the words, ponder them and then reflect without being put on the spot.**// //**This said, I think more synchronous activities would be useful. I know this isn't always easy. In fact when we develop online courses at the college, I often get a lot of hesitation from instructors when it comes to synchronous activities. They feel that it is too much work to find common times for students to meet. In some cases, they think it is asking too much of students who have already chosen to take this type of course. I disagree with this in many ways. For one, I think that there will definitely be those types of students but there will be those types of students who resist in any learning environment. I also think that if it is established early enough, students will find a way to commit.**// //**An other issue with teacher presence that I have found in post secondary institutions, at least at our own, is the amount of time an instructor is willing to commit to the course. I don't know if this extends beyond the college that I work at but our standards for hiring online staff are much different from those used to hire on-campus staff. Our online "tutors" get paid a fraction of what our face to face instructors get paid. In most cases, they get paid per student. I think it can be as low as $200 a student. SO if you have a small class, it hardly makes it worth while. Because we follow the e-campus standards (http://www.ecampusalberta.ca/index.php?q=content/elearning-rubric) in course development, the courses themselves are organized to deliver strong cognitive and social presence through tools such as interactive learning objects, check your knowledge activities, discussion boards, video, podcasts etc. . . but as much as we encourage instructors to maintain a strong presence in the course, it isn't always guaranteed.**//

//**Jackie**//

Hi Guys,

Doug- Great posts (the discussion board is closed). You provided some great comments.

Heid- This is my first round of courses but I can see what you mean. I pay close attention to what Linda posts and the home page is wonderful. By comparison the research course I'm in the prof only sends us weekly updates and never posts. As a result I usually devote much more time to this course. Which I suppose helps with the above questions.

Well on to our final discussion (only two more weeks in D2L wow). As we were just discussing a social presence seems to make the course more inactive and lively. Modeling from this course I would say social presence comes from the teacher dropping into the discussion boards. Personal comments in the grade area and dropbox also help a lot. Linda kept up a fairly recent update of course info on the homepage but she also used it to share her personal life photos. I think this helped increase her presence in the course. I agree with Doug on the cognitive presence in learning. If the students don't buy into the course they are just doing what is required to pass, then they forget everything.

Brendan - ps has anyone figured out how to do a spellcheck on a wiki?

Hi folks. Brendan, my solution to spell check is to use firefox browser. It has a spell check built in. (Oddly the word firefox is getting a red underline - lol)

As for the discussion... As with TPAC the CoI model really needs to have all three components in place for engagement to occur. As you point out above, the teaching presence helps to keep conversation on track - and provide reassurance that what we are saying is correct. The sense of space built though community is what causes the conversation to matter. I would say that in this space has a clear social presence. The scavenger hunt and opening activities helped to build this, but I think that I've gotten to know my classmates far more through the rich online discussion both within this group and in the main forums. That's where cognitive presence is critical - it is through a rich problem that rich discussion occurs.

Hi again- it's Heidi. I agree with whomever wrote above (not sure -Doug? Jaclyn?) that all three components (COL model) need to be in place and they work hand in hand to create an engaged learning situation. I find that in some of these discussion boards, the conversation is richer than what would occur in a F2F environment, because everyone gets an equal chance at having a say- if they want to spend the time reading and writing on the discussion board. A participant in a DB conversation has time to think about responses and comments- whereas in a F2F class, the conversation may have already moved on before a person gets a chance to jump in. In a F2F dialogue, one has the advantage of visual cues, voice inflection etc. that help to enhance the social presence, however an in-class discussion can easily be dominated by a more outspoken student. I suppose the same can happen on Elluminate or Skype.

I always like when the prof includes personal photos and encourages the students to do the same. In my mind, there is something strangely impersonal about having a discussion with someone when you have no clue what that person looks like. I agree with the above statement about getting to know our classmates through the discussion...however this is the first course where the prof didn't ask us all to submit photos of ourselves. I find myself wondering what you all look like :) I agree with you that there has been a significant social presence established in this course. Linda has set up a pretty good model here. just a few thoughts to end off my day.... Heidi

I think another critical part of this is the culture established by the instructor. Although an uber-poster doesn't necessarily prevent others from posting, a dominant participant can still side track the conversation (or worse shut it down). When the instructor (or other facilitator) joins in the conversation to set expectations, probe, and redirect they can keep the conversation democratic. The same holds true with teaching presence too. For example, a discussion facilitator can shut a conversation down by simply providing a "right answer". Cheers, Doug

HI again...it's Heidi. Back to the tools that support learning within and without D2L- I //really// like how this course has a lot of audio/visual elements to it. Maybe it is just the kind of learner I am, but I find I get a lot more out of the videos than I do from reading an article- at least the first time around. I like that I can go back and watch them again if I missed a point or just wanted reinforcement. I can pause them when my kids are suddenly needing something- or if I want to stop and make notes. My previous experiences with Blackboard have largely included links to journal articles and a discussion board taks to follow- possibly a paper to write in response. Elluminate sessions can help to create a greater sense of social presence, but often there are only a couple of these per course. The survey feature we used, the quizzes- the small group discussions (to be conducted in whichever way we see fit)...all of these different approaches help to make this course 'come to life'. By using these tools, I somehow feel like I am more present and participatory than I do when I am just reading articles and responding to questions or writing papers. As far as tools that 'hinder' this goal..I am not sure. Many of our discussions to date have talked about how tools need to be used to enhance the learning- not to be the focus of the learning. I totally agree with that. I don't know that i can think of any one tool that hinders the goal- the effectiveness of tools just depend on how they are used and how suited they are to the learning task. It can be frustrating to a student when the technology takes over. For example, in one course, I had a prof who was REALLY keen on us all learning to master using Endnote or Refworks. While an effective use of either program would certainly help a graduate student with APA- the assignment consumed what many considered a hugely disproportionate amount of time and energy and had really very little to do with the content of the course. Many students expressed their confusion and frustration with the assignment- because while the technology was useful to a certain extent- it wasn't a course on APA; it was a course on something else. Just looking at the deadline for this.... Is there anyone who is up to the summary this time? Heidi

Hi Everyone, I agree with Heidi. This course certainly comes alive with all these discussions and the response of Linda in the forums and the dropbox and grade areas are great. Pictures look great by the way. I notice Jaclyn hasn't been on line since Sept. I wonder if she is getting our group mark? Oh well. I can certainly do the summary for this one Heidi but I am not up to your APA standard. Can I run it by you later for editing? Also heads up Eder assign#1 is coming up.(see content) Brendan

Yes- thanks so much guys for posting your photos. What a nice suprise to see your pictures and what a good looking group we are!! :) Neither of you look anything like I had imagined- isn't that funny? I am not sure what has happened to Jaclyn. (?!) and yes- I have wondered the same thing about the group participation. I am slightly confused about the due date for the EDER assignment. It seems to have changed- maybe because of the mixup with the starting date. Or am I wrong? Brendan- thanks for offering to write the summary. I will be glad to look it over if you want...I am sure it will be fine! I am certainly not an APA wizard- but have taken a couple of courses with a certain prof that was pretty adamant that we get it right. I agree about the feedback from Linda. It helps that she does it promptly. Some profs are less than on the ball with marking. It can be really demotivating to get something back a month or so later- whether you submit it electronically or on paper. Heidi

this is guys let me know what you want to change and I will post it in the AM Brendan

Developing and maintain teaching, cognitive and social presence. In our group discussion we felt that a strong social presence from the professor and fellow students helped make the course more active and lively. Having an instructor pop in to keep everyone on target helps establish their active presence. Personalized comments in the grade area, dropbox, and maintaining an up to date presence thru personal updates on the homepage also help the students feel connected to the instructor. An active social presence by the students is created by building a sense of community in the discussion forums. Creating a group space built though community is what causes the conversation to matter. We felt that we’ve gotten to know our classmates far more through the rich online discussion both within individual discussion forums like wikis and in the main forums. The scavenger hunt and opening activities helped to build this space which we feel in some ways produced a superior conversation than a face to face environment. In an on line environment everyone gets an equal chance at having a say if they want to spend the time reading and writing on the discussion board. A participant in a discussion forum has time to think about responses and comments. Whereas in a face to face class, the conversation may have already moved on before a person gets a chance to jump in and in-class discussions can easily be dominated by a more outspoken student. However we found that true cognitive presence is difficult to achieve in any learning space - on or off line. To be truly intellectually engaged the learning experience needs to matter to the student. So often learning is built upon a transmission model. In the face to face classroom this shows up as a lecture - take notes - produce an assimilation of the notes. In the online environment this appears as tasks that involve reading and answering questions. For a task in either of these environments to build cognitive presence, the learning needs to be authentic, collaborative, challenging, and meaningful. If the students don't buy into the course they are just doing what is required to pass. In a F2F dialogue, one has the advantage of visual cues, voice inflection etc. that help to maintain interest. However an on-class course has the opportunity to reach many styles of learning by adding audio/visual elements to it. Students can go back over them again and again if they miss a point or want reinforcement or if they just want to stop and make notes As with TPAC the CoI model really needs to have all three components in place for engagement to occur. The teaching presence helps to keep the course on track - and provide reassurance that what we are doing is correct. The social presence of fellow students helps to keep the course active and the technology allows different styles of learning to succeed. We also note that the effectiveness of tools depend on how they are used and how suited they are to the learning task. It can be frustrating to a student when the technology takes over. This looks great Brendan! Thanks so much for taking this one on- I really appreciate the thought you put into this summary! :) Heidi

This is Jackie. . .My stomach actually sunk when I saw the comment about group participation. I really have been lost with this wiki. I kept adding to the first page and then adding on my own to the overall discussion because I wasn't sure where your summaries were coming from. I just noticed the links to the additional pages on the side of the first page.

//**This is actually my first online course as a student- though I have developed over 40! I think Doug has been great. I really appreciate the immediate feedback. I think that instructor presence is one of the most important components to bridging that gap between face to face learning and online learning. I also think the discussion boards have been useful at connecting students. We can learn so much from each other. Though I have to say keeping up with the discussion posts has been a bit overwhelming for me. On the other hand, it is great to see the words, ponder them and then reflect without being put on the spot.**// //**This said, I think more synchronous activities would be useful. I know this isn't always easy. In fact when we develop online courses at the college, I often get a lot of hesitation from instructors when it comes to synchronous activities. They feel that it is too much work to find common times for students to meet. In some cases, they think it is asking too much of students who have already chosen to take this type of course. I disagree with this in many ways. For one, I think that there will definitely be those types of students but there will be those types of students who resist in any learning environment. I also think that if it is established early enough, students will find a way to commit.**// //**An other issue with teacher presence that I have found in post secondary institutions, at least at our own, is the amount of time an instructor is willing to commit to the course. I don't know if this extends beyond the college that I work at but our standards for hiring online staff are much different from those used to hire on-campus staff. Our online "tutors" get paid a fraction of what our face to face instructors get paid. In most cases, they get paid per student. I think it can be as low as $200 a student. SO if you have a small class, it hardly makes it worth while. Because we follow the e-campus standards (**// [] ) in course development, the courses themselves are organized to deliver strong cognitive and social presence through tools such as interactive learning objects, check your knowledge activities, discussion boards, video, podcasts etc. . . but as much as we encourage instructors to maintain a strong presence in the course, it isn't always guaranteed.

Again I'm sorry. //**Jackie**//

HI Jackie-it's Heidi. I m just catching your post here now. Sorry that you were confused. This is perhaps one of the hazards of learning together without being 'together'. Perhaps we could all have done a better job at communicating how this was going.. I agree with your post about the teacher time factor. I once taught/tutored a distance course (with very primitive technology- but nevertheless...) I was also paid per student (for the first time in my career). It was pitiful how much it all worked out to- $150/student/ course - BEFORE taxes. It hardly made it worth my while. I had one very small class- which made it even less profitable- especially because that course was poorly designed and needed a lot of revision (translation- more time on my part). I hate to say that the 'time factor' played a role in how much energy and enthusiasm I put into my course-and how 'present' I was, but I think it did- at least to some degree. Time is a 'reality factor' we need to contend with as teachers. Heidi


 * //Thanks Heidi. I'm sure it was hard to not feel resentful in a situation like that. Luckily for your students, it sounds like you still chose to commit yourself. I'm hoping that the system changes. When we develop courses, we go through such a rigorous evaluation process to create quality courses yet we devalue the education and experience of those we hire to teach them by not compensating them for what they are worth. It's not fair to the students who pay for quality education which includes proper guidance from the instructor but at the same time it's not fair to the instructor.//**


 * //Jackie//**